LGD killing lambs! help

[teresa k]

Help, I have a 1 y/o ( she was 1 in feb ) that has killed 2 lambs. She is currently locked up in the kennel and has no access to the sheep. So can she get over this? I joined a LGD list and they basicaly told me that it was all my fault.
She is a Maremma X Anatolian X Pyr, she was raised with sheep. I got her in Dec ( after losing a wonderful Pyr to bone cancer ) I have a 7 y/o Anatolian X Pyr that is wonderful with sheep. So I get her to my farm walk her around the perimeter of the farm a few times ( leashed ) and then put her in a kennel bay so she can get used to me and my BC's. After a few days I allow her access to a large lot around the barn with the Anatolian ( he is a neutered male ) she seems like she settles in OK. Get her spayed and then I put out her in with the rams to see how she does. She seems ok, but after a couple of weeks she starts to chase after the rams and would run at my horse and bark ( esp when he would kick up his heels and run ). I would yell at her and she would stop at the time but would do it again. After a bit I put her with the ewes, they are heavy pregnant and don't run she seems to do OK with them. Then she starts to get out, so she goes back into the kennel until we can get the electric up and hog panels on the gates. Mid March I start lambing I put her back with the rams and the horse. I walk her through the ewes and lambs on a leash she is fine with the ewes and lambs seems interested but calm and respectful. Finish with lambing, put her with the older dog out with the ewes and lambs, all seems well. I go out to feed one AM and I see her in the pasture and she is throwing a lamb into the air. She has blood on her face and legs and the lamb is missing a front leg. Here is the kicker this lamb was one of the last born and was in a seperate pasture from the pasture she was in. She had to go thru a gate and get the lamb and carry it a good distance to where I found it. I took her out of the ewes and lambs and put her in the kennel. After some consults I did put her back in the ram pasture. A week later she dug under a fence and got with the ewes and lambs and killed the brother to the first lamb ( they were the youngest two lambs ). SHe did the sam thing tore off the front leg and on this lamb she was into the chest cavity. so can this be straightened out or does she need to go to doggy heaven?
Thanks
Teresa

[thornhill]

Afraid I have no answers Teresa but I hope others do. I've got a 1yr old as well and she's making me nervous. Thankfully my ewes are very protective and she's been nailed (for breathing the same air) several times. I've seen her give playing lambs a wide berth but I still don't trust her 100%.

My biggest concern is the creep feeder. I had a milk bucket in it and she's small enough to get thru the bars and decided that the creep/milk bucket was hers, chasing the lambs away from it. So back in with the yearlings she went. The ewes and lambs are surrounded by electronet so I'm fairly sure she won't get back in even tho she wants back in real bad.

I think raising a LGD (right) is one of the hardest things I've ever attempted. I'm sure I've made a mess of mistakes with her but am doing the best I can in my circumstances as it sounds like you are as well.

There are times when I think LGDs are more trouble than they're worth and the first few years are certainly challenging. I personally have no doubt that my pup will become an excellent guardian for my ewes and lambs...eventually. I've already seen her step between a ewe and a friends BC that was about to come thru a crack in the gate and give the BC the look. I know because he then thought better about coming thru the crack in the gate. I was very happy to see that, gave me renewed hope that she'll be a good LGD.

I'm very sorry you lost 2 lambs and I can only imagine what it was like to see your LGD tossing them in the air (shudder). I'm anxious to hear what the experts have to say about this.

Jen

[Laura L.]

Teresa,
Unless you actually saw the dog killing the lambs, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that she did-not saying it's not possible but I haven't had one kill a sheep but they will take the opportunity to eat a dead one.

I'd keep her out of the ewes and lambs with a drag or something so that she can't dig and get out. She's still an immature dog. If you look back at this section you'll find some more suggestions. Mary Falk (Lovetree) and Janet McNally (Tamarack Wool) have given lots of good advice on young dogs.
Laura

[Laura L.]

Teresa,
I'm bumping this back up and hoping that someone else will post too. Having a young guard dog can be nerve wracking, but it's worth it once they've grown up.
Laura

[Janet McNally]

Hi Teresa,

there is hope, although there is also one disturbing part of your report, and I would say I see nothing wrong with how you have handled her so far. The 8 to 18 month old juvies is the worst age because they still think like puppies but are 80 to 100 lbs with big teeth and can do a lot of harm.

I hope you made her life flash before her eyes when you caught her tossing the lamb. Your express opinion of this will have an influence on her. These are YOUR sheep she is messing with and she needs to know that. Timing is everything and catching her in the act is vital. Also dragging her to a kennel might help get the point across.

To determine if she did kill the lamb, note whether the blood flowed freely, or was it clotted, and did she cause bruises under the skin. A predator will leave relatively few bruises where as a playful LGD will have an abundance of bruises all over the lamb.

Assuming she did kill these two lambs, I would remove her from the lambs for now...back to the rams, and give her another month before giving her another chance.

The part that is disturbing is that she tossed the lamb in the air like a mouse. That sounds predatory and you cannot fix predatory. But I guess I'd give her more time to determine what is truly going on.

janet

[Justin-PA]

Along the same lines of this post...is it ok to let LGD's eat the lambs that have died? I had a 1-day old lamb dead this morning. She laid in the barn until the afternoon when I went out and buried her in the compost pile. Funny thing is the dogs didn't mess with her until after I buried her. My smaller dog slipped thru the gate, dug her up, and tonight all 3 dogs were having lamb for supper. This is not the first time my dogs have dug into the compost pile to get at decomposing lambs or even just bones. Is this something to be concerned about? I kinda figure since they don't mess with them until I bury then its not going to hurt anything?

[Janet McNally]

Justin that is a very hard one to answer. Putting health issues aside for a moment, I have let my older dogs eat dead lambs and it makes no difference to their behavior. they understand the lamb is dead and often wait until it is properly 'aged' before they will consume it. I don't allow my young dogs (under 2) to eat dead lambs because I am concerned they might get a bit mixed up with newborns and dead stock.

But there is another concern and that is the possibility that the dog might spread diseases or parasites by consuming dead sheep. Probably not so likely with newborn lambs, but definitely possible with adult sheep. For this reason I now pick up all dead stock and remove them from the farm.

One of my dogs actually buries dead lambs herself!

janet

[Laura L.]

This was the first year that I let the guard dogs eat dead lambs. I solved the question in my mind by cutting them up into pieces and giving them to the dogs so they were food, not lambs.

Otherwise in the past, we've just buried them in the woods.
Laura

[Justin-PA]

Thanks for the replies...think I will either do as Laura does and cut them up or bury them somewhere the dogs can't get to (which is an issue since I don't have a huge farm.)

Justin

[Janet McNally]

Hi Justin,

are there any wildlife centers nearby that have predators (including raptors) on hand? We have several places that take in wildlife for various reasons that remain there permanently as a part of an educational display. They welcome fresh donations.

janet