Introducing Gaius to the lambs...

[Chanda]

So I am trying to plan ahead here. I am trying to figure out the best way to introduce Gaius to the lambs. He is HUGE and they are so tiny.

He has been wearing the long chain to slow him down a little bit with the 6 sheep he is in with now. I took the chain off one evening when we were going to have lightening and thunder storms. The next evening I saw him do a little playful 'drive by' on one of the sheep as he was running down the alley way out to the big pasture. I put the chain right back on. I haven't seen him do anything other than that but thought it was safer for him to just wear the chain. it just slows him down a little bit.

I still would like to make the pipe thing but I just can't quite figure out exactly what it is supposed to look like. I don't think wearing a long chain would be appropriate when he is in with the lambs because they are tiny and could be damaged by the chain somehow. The pipe thing sounds less dangerous for the little lambs.

So my brilliant idea was to move Gaius and all the sheep into the electronet on my front lawn. Gaius is afraid of the electronet and tends to be VERY calm in it. The area will not be very large so he won't really have a chance to run around anyway.

Then I was thinking that I could build the pipe drag thing and he could wear that for a couple days and I could watch him very carefully because he will be in my front yard and I can see him out every window.

So that is my plan... If you guys think it sounds good...

The thing I am wondering is, if it would be good to introduce him to the lambs for short periods of time while I am supervising before the 'move'. He has seen the lambs through the fence since their birth (they are all around 17 days old now) but he hasn't interacted with them at all. Would it be a good idea to let him into the pen and see how he acts for a short periods of time each day?

Or, should I just suddenly move everyone in together and move them into the electronet all at one time? (I don't have to do this immediately, just planning for next week or so.)

[Chanda]

What is the length of the pipe? I know 3/4 of an inch for the diameter but I don't know how long it should be.

Also should the chain be thick or thin?

Also... should the hole be drilled all the way through the pipe with the chain slid all the way through or can it be drilled through one side of the pipe and the chain just clipped on? Should the pipe hang STRAIGHT down or at an angle?

I think it is supposed to hang just above his ankles when he is standing normally... I hope I am getting this right...

[Chanda]

Just thought I would let you guys know that Gaius is doing well with the lambs.

I still haven't figured out how long of a pipe to get for his dangle so I found a heavier shorter chain that wraps around his legs and smacks him when he tries to run. It causes him to lower his head and walk slow, which I think is the desired affect. I would still like to make the dangle pipe though...

I have the entire flock(minus the rams) inside the electronet on our lawn. Gaius is scared of the net so he is calm. The sheep are doing fine. The lambs seem to like Gaius and seem to lay near him quite often... So far so good. They are RIGHT outside my living room and bed room windows so I can see them all day and all night. I can hear Gaius' chain clink when he gets up so I can take a peek and make sure he is staying quiet...

Thanks
Chanda & Gaius

[dog]

>I still haven't figured out how long of a pipe to get for his dangle so I found a heavier shorter chain that wraps around his legs and smacks him when he tries to run. It causes him to lower his head and >walk slow, which I think is the desired affect. I would still like to make the dangle pipe though...
just goes to show the difference between countries -down here this action could be considered to be a breech of our Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act.

'- An actual act of cruelty - this includes physically harming an animal with the intention of inflicting pain or distress'

We would use a more positive approach rather then a negative one. Tools such as the electric collar , dangle chains and drag chains are banned in most of Australia and rightly so. Sound collars that are designed to get the attention of the dog not harm it by using freq's that would hurt the animal are still available - with these they are used 1) get attention,2) command and 3) Reward. The radio collars that are set at a freq to give distress to the animal are banned.

The most important aspect of LGD use is that you have complete faith and trust in the dog, if you need to know during the night what the dog is doing then you do not have complete faith and trust in the dog which generally means that either the dog is not trained and ready for the paddock or you have second thoughts about allowing any unatended dog into the flock.

[Darroll Grant]

Another difference in countries. When in Australia four years back we watched sheep being loaded on a 4 deck truck. Beneath the bottom deck was the dog cages with muzzled kelpies. Once the truck was backed up to the loading dock, the dogs were let out. Sufficient sheep were moved onto the dock to fill a compartment, THEN the dogs were called in. The sheep loaded simply to get away from the dogs (the dogs were slamming their muzzles into the sheep barking and growling) as there was no other way out. The compartment gate shut, dogs over the fence and the next compartment quantity cut off, dogs called in and repeat. The muzzles kept the sheep from getting actually bitten. I wonder how they were unloaded. The sheep were headed directly to slaughter and were severely stressed before leaving the farm. They had been carefully gathered, herded to the shed and sorted without threat of a dog attack. The sheep trucks I saw all had dog boxes on the belly.

I have never seen sheep loaded in the US with such fear and force. Frequently a judas goat is used to lead animals into the truck. I seriously doubt Dr. Grandin would put her stamp of approval on the system.

What is acceptable in one country may not be acceptable in another.

[dog]

the activity you mention is not acceptabe down here - kelpies are eye dogs have no need to bite and would be selectively bred in a stud program to decrease any tendency to bite. No matter where you go you may find an idiot in any industry - but finding that idiot is not a reason to condem the whole industry. Multi deck transport has stricht guidelines on height of between floor space. In the outer areas 4 deck units are not uncommon, the problems come about when a 2 deck catle carrier decides to make some quick money by converting a2 deck cattle transport into a 4 deck sheep transport. Luckily most of these 'cowboys' are picked up at the sale yards by the inspectors or on the road by the stock police.

as to the dog box - it is illegal to have a dog in a car, on the back of the ute or on the tray of a truck without constraints. I use a dog box to transport the Foxie - if I have to transport the kangal then she has special seat belt restrainers. My kelpies always travelled in a dog box. The average truckie has one or more dogs and these travel in a dog box which allows them to move around and stand up basically the same as a good kennel. Some times the box will come open on route accidents do happen, the dogs usually know to park themselves outside a pub. I've taken a few home and then put a call out on the truckies channel about the dog, you normally only have to wait a week or so and the truckie turns up for his dog. These dogs are treated no different then a sheep farmer would treat his working dogs - they are valuable assets.However as I said we have idiots in all industries be it bank managers that buy and sell mortages with no asset backing or a truckie that has no respect for his dog or the animals he moves.

The biggest idiot in the case you describe is the farmer who owns the sheep, he either does not have suitable loading infrastructure or he has no regard for his product. There would be no way I am going to have bruised meat and product with bite marks all over them

[Chanda]

Well I am not sure how your are going to trust a 10 month old LGD puppy who has never seen a tiny lamb in it's whole life. He has to learn somehow that it is not OK to chase lambs. Wearing a chain that prevents him from doing it his very first years seems like a decent way to make sure no one gets killed. I have a tiny flock and only 5 lambs. I can't afford to lose even one to a puppy accident. Nor can I stay up all night every night watching him. I have to sleep at some point.

This is a huge puppy and I don't think a chain popping him in the leg when he runs is any kind of torture. All he has to do is walk and there is zero pain involved.

Besides, how is a collar that emits a sound any different. The sound is going to irritate his ear drums just as much as a chain would irritate his legs...

I don't mean to argue but I think it is pretty ridiculous to come on here and say such things to someone just doing there best to raise up a new LGD and trying to deal with the teenage phase and keep their lambs safe. If you want it done differently then come over here and take care of it for me. I am doing the best I can.

[dog]

lambs are important no matter if you only have 10 sheep or 8000 sheep. The difference between a farm working dog and an LGD is that the lgd is bonded to the sheep. It is the bonding that makes the dog trust worthy, the other side of the lgd is the protective side. Both sides of the equation are important but it is the bonding that should come first. Even in an lgd breed such as the Kangal etc one still needs to turn on the bonding or at least tell the dog what it is to bond with - this could be sheep, cows, chickens even peacocks and chicks. The animal has the genetics that have been breed into the breed to enable the bonding but generally you need to go thro the process of actually bonding it to the species you want it to protect. When properly bonded to say sheep it does not make any difference if the sheep is old,young or new born.
I am not picking on you but in all truthfulness stating that in my opinion the dog is not fully bonded to the flock - it is normal for an LGD to 'inspect' the new born lambs it will scent them and thus add them to its 'flock' but this procedure is not running after or chasing lambs.
Bonding is done in different ways depending on the breed or more importantly the type of LGD. However across all breeds it is an imprinting on the dog - the method we commonly use down here and is fairly standard across the world is the pup/dog ( imprinting an be done at any age and a dog can be reprinted with another species at a latter date) is to pen the dog up with a trustworthy ewe - the dog has the least interaction with humans and the most with the species it is to bond to. Depending on the breed this period can be quite short. Our pups at this stage would only have contact with humans at feed time and then only to bring the food in to it. With the kangal the period can be as short as 3 to 4 weeks. Once this procedure is finished we also bond the lgd to the farm area as we use patrolling type lgd’s
The process of putting it with the ewe achieves two things - one the bonding is turned on to the species and two, the dog has a 'friend' that introduces it to the flock overall - the ewe one uses should be one that has authority in the flock structure - thus a ewe that has had the most offspring in the flock is the best one to use - flock structure is based on number of offspring.
The bonding process does not turn the lgd into believing that it is a sheep as a lot of people believe - it turns the protection trait on and the sheep become part of the dogs pack. The pack trait has been modified over , in some breeds, several thousand years of breeding and is different from the pack trait of an average dog
The problems that are common with clients that have their first LGD is that they interact too much with the dog- thus the dog is imprinted to humans more then it is to the sheep – by the nature of its breeding the dog thus moves humans into the ‘pack’ with the sheep thus the humans lose authority to some degree. Some consider the lgd to be the same as a working dog and thus use to much authority with the outcome that the dog relies on the human to direct it. The proper outlook to have with an LGD is that it is a farm worker, you ‘pay’ it (feed it) as payment for a job done and you might have a beer (pat on the head , friendly reward words) after work but during working hours you both going about doing your job.
So at first you need to work out where in the equation are you – what is the relationship between you and the dog. Owner, co-worker or one of the pack.
Owner one who has absolute authority, co-worker – one who has responsibility over his workers, trusts that they will do their job and will step in to help if needed or one that owns a dog that does basically what it pleases. I always say to clients that one does not own a LGD nor does the lgd own you. You have to trust your farm workers and you have to trust your LGD – you have to train your farm workers and you have to trains(bond) your LGD without the bonding you will have a dog that has no respect for boundaries be they physical or implied ie no playing with the sheep. So the next question to ask is how long did you isolate the dog from humans and how long did you have the pup isolated with a ewe ie what was your bonding procedure for the pup. A LGD has the bonding ability but it has to be actually bonded to the individual specie you want protected on the farm it is to work on.

If the lgd is chasing lambs then it is not as yet bonded to the flock – best procedure is to remove it and start the bonding procedure over again – using negative feedback to the pup at this stage is counter productive – it may appear to be bonded but in fact it is reacting to negative factors instead of positive one or more important to the inbuilt trait. Ie it does not chase lambs because my owner does not like me to and if I do continue then I am going to be hurt every time I attempt to run. Hanging drag chains on a dog is a good way to stop the pet dog from chasing cars but it is not a good method to bond an LGD to its flock. So you have to 1) stop dead in your tracks, 2) go back to the beginning and 3) think LGD not dog.

Down here the hardest problem we have in selling or putting an LGD on a sheep farm is that for years the farmer has lost sheep to wild dogs, town dogs and stray dogs – we tell him that by putting a dog into the flock he will have no more dog problems. The farmer is taught how to bond the dog to the flock and for the first lambing they usually do not sleep and have the trusty gun ready in the ute to go down and shoot the dog if need be. However by the end of lambing with a lambing percentage of 85% now 100% + they are the best salesman one can find.

>I don't mean to argue but I think it is pretty ridiculous to come on here and say such >things to someone just doing there best to raise up a new LGD and trying to deal >with the teenage phase and keep their lambs safe. If you want it done differently then >come over here and take care of it for me. I am doing the best I can.
Firstly I do believe that using a drag chain or pipe is cruel on any dog and is not required (apart from that it is illegal in this country), secondly this is a forum and not every thing that one will say will be totally to your likening – differing views are important in life and thirdly I fully understand the problems that you are experiencing and finally if we did not have the Pacific Ocean between us I would be only too happy to visit the farm and have a person to person talk about the problems and maybe help to solve it with you. Or if you visit Australia members of both the forum and the sheep-l list always have a bed available down here.

[Chanda]

I am guessing you think I don't know this stuff already???

I got the dog at 10 weeks old. The dog lived with the sheep and I only saw him twice a day when I fed them. For the first month or so I would pat him on the head when I came into feed. That is it.

He is 10 months old now and has had very little contact with humans. Other than not feeding my sheep or giving them water I don't know how to limit his contact with humans any more than that...

He has NEVER chased the lambs. The lambs were just born and he was in another pasture when they were born.

He has however been hyper every now and then and was trying to play with a couple of the sheep 3 weeks ago and injured 2 of them and I wanted to make sure he didn't try and play with the lambs because they are so small.

So far he has done nothing but try and sniff the lambs and lay near them.

Just in case I am not watching or if I am away from home I have a chain on him so that he will not try chasing anyone. I would rather be safe than sorry.

I don't see how you can you can expect a real live dog of 10 months old to NEVER be hyper and try and play a little. That seems like a natural thing for any dog to do. I am sure once he is fully grown he will stay relatively calm all the time but he is growing and going through those teenage years.

[lovetree]

=Hi Chanda.
I dont know how long to make the pipe, it depends in the height of Gaius. It needs to swing freely between his legs from a chain that is attached to a swivel on his collar.
You will need to measure him. The pipe hangs vertically straight down from the chain. On some dogs the pipe would be aaround 12 inches long, and on others it will be longer, maybe shorter... again, you need to measure.
When the dog stands in his normal stance, with his head held erect, the pipe should not touch the ground.
I use black iron pipe or galvanized pipe that is approx 3/4 inch in diameter.
You need to be able to check on him daily, which I know you do.
The pipe shouldnt be left on for more than three or four days at a time.