EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

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EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby McMurry » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:35 pm

Can anyone direct me to a list of of breeds / composites (domestic or otherwise) that require EBV's for registration / certification?
I know about NZ Coopworth and Dohne (South Africa & Australia) but I don't know where to go to find others.
Many thanks.
Andy
Andy McMurry

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Re: EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby Polypays4U » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:46 pm

I don't believe any U.S. breed require EBVs for registration but I could be wrong. IMO. this is not a good thing, but I'm biased as I run registered sheep with EBVs. Not all sheep need to have EBVs but I would think all seedstock producers should have sheep with EBVs and commercial producers should use rams with EBVs. I think it will be a long time before this happens.
Bill Hardman
Uncompahgre Polypay Farm
Delta, Colorado
The western home of productive Polypays.
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Re: EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby McMurry » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:16 pm

Bill,
Thanks for the feedback.
I couldn't agree more with you on all points. If more / all breeds would require this as a prerequisite, then rams could be purchased from these breeds with confidence - the whole process would be streamlined.
I was wondering if you or others that are on LP would be willing to share your experiences with regard to the estimated cost (in $ and time invested) that is required to be able to offer for sale, sheep / genetics with EBV's? What would be the maximum ewes that an average farming family or individual could reasonably expect themselves to keep with EBV's. I had brief first hand experience with a flock of 600 ewes (New Zealand) that did this and it seemed like a handful for a couple to do even with the extensive industry support structure that they had.
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Re: EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby Janet McNally » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:44 pm

The Ile de France was the first breed to make performance a part of a registration requirement back in (approx) 1938. the current status depends upon the country and breed association, but the country of origen (France) is very big on performance testing many breeds of sheep, facilitated by government sponsored AI centers and test stations.

The Tamarack and Tamarack Prolific is by definition, a breed that requires enrollment in Lambplan to be called a Tamarack. However I have not yet found a buyer quite willing to produce the records to pursue this. So at this time only my flock being recorded.

Siremax is another breed that is based upon EBVs and enrollement with Lambplan.

Janet
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Re: EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby Wclones » Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:08 pm

Andy

I don't know of any US sheep breeds that the Association requires NSIP or LP data. This is unfortunate. I can not think of a major beef breed in the US that does not have it printed right on the pedigree. I do think it is costing the sheep breed associations money. I'm certainly not the biggest Polypay flock around. I sell 10-12 rams a year. I only had to register 1 of those rams this year. When I ask buyers if they wanted registration papers or a NSIP performance pedigree, 90% opted for the performance pedigree. I know one breeder that did not register a single sheep. He is basing everything off of NSIP performance pedigrees. If the Polypay Association had the NSIP EBVs on the registration (like Angus or Herefords) I would probably go that route on all the rams sold. Hopefully one of the US sheep breeds will step up and set a precedent on this.

You also asked about cost. There is an annual enrollment fee base on the number of ewes that you run. You then pay $2 for processing for all the lambs you receive post weaning data on. I'll use my flock for an example. We run 30 ewes, so annual enrollment is $100. We report 60+ lambs per year. We get Early Post Weaning data on around 50. Our cost is $100+(50x$2)=$200. So getting EPWWT EBVs on the 50 lambs cost me $4 a lamb. Lets assume an average non NSIP ram lambs is worth $400. I averaged just over $700 on ram lambs sold priced of their US Maternal+Wool Index (most in the top 10 percentile). NSIP does not cost me anything, it pays!

Hope this made sense Andy.
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Re: EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby Polypays4U » Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:29 pm

Andy

The enrollment fee is based upon the number of adult sheep in your flock. The lamb fee is a one time fee. The Payment to LambPlan for NSIP will be in the vicinity of what Jerry said but the total cost per lamb will go down some as the flock size increases. Of course, you have the cost of labor, etc. to collect and send the data to LambPlan. I don't know where it becomes something beyond what a family can handle. I too have a small flock around 60 ewes and it won't get any bigger due to health and age.

I believe we should maintain registration for our breed as well.
Bill Hardman
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Re: EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby Polypays4U » Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:36 pm

Jerry

I don't think we should feel too good about averaging $700 for NSIP ram lambs when we look at what the non-NSIP rams brought at the Utah Ram Sale.
Bill Hardman
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Re: EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby Darroll Grant » Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:06 pm

If there is not an economic incentive how would a seed stock breeder justify the added time and trouble? Document-able evidence about how good one's sheep EBVs are, are not very spendable when it comes time to put cash on the table unless someone is willing to pay extra for genetically superior EBVs. Of course the phenotype must also be acceptable.
Darroll Grant
western Oregon
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Re: EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby Wclones » Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:24 pm

Bill

I'm selling 5 month old ram lambs for $700. Most of the ram in Utah were yearling that are 19 months old. I'm okay with that.
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Re: EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby Janet McNally » Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:17 pm

re: cost and time requirement for 150 ewes

cost $350 enrollement fee (approx 150 ewes) + $2 per lamb
scanning $5 to $9 per lamb
three weights, approx 4 hours each weight, third weight includes scanning.
inputting data into PW approx 12 to 15 hours give or take. This probably can be greatly sped up if I was more tech saavy.
tagging and recording birth info...wow, how to decide how much to attribute to record keeping because I'd probably tag lambs at birth anyway for management purposes. I figure the way I do things, my limit is 300 ewes, but the Lewis's hold the tagothon record at nearly several times that many.

Now for the real time consumer... evaluating and sorting lambs. I can't ship any lambs until all the data is in. This sometimes means having to pass up on good marketing opportunities. I will put the ram lambs through the chute at least six times as I re evaluate and cull the group to arrive at my final choice. I probably spend more time evaluating and sorting lambs as I did collecting the data.

This is certainly within your reach Andy, Lambplan has a number of features that would be of special interest to you, such as fec ebvs, and fleece quality.

Janet
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Re: EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby McMurry » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:44 am

Janet wrote;
This is certainly within your reach Andy, Lambplan has a number of features that would be of special interest to you, such as fec ebvs, and fleece quality.

Thanks Janet,
Im not trying to make any great influence here- just some rambling thoughts -
I kept personal production records on all my ewes for 16 yrs up until I began AI seriously in 05' when at that time I had around 150 ewes. At that point the production histories were a great tool to know which ewes to put into the AI "elite" group, I could easily see the production following the generations within a family group but I did everything the hard way on paper - In retrospect I should have used LP!
Once I started introducing new blood with the AI program I quit keeping production records but opted rather to keep upgrading the successive crops of AI ewe lambs with the new AI rams. I put alot of trust in the quality & integrity of the AI rams that I used. The rams I liked the offspring of the most did indeed have impressive EBV's but in my case I discovered this after I had the lambs.
My interest now is with a breed (like your Ill de France) that also has been developed with EBV,s since the late 1930's. I like knowing that a certified ram from this breed is pre-potent (for the established breed traits) without having to dig thorough a bunch of numbers. Just seems logical that breeds should work this way.
Then again, if I knew and liked the sheep from an honest, dedicated breeder who kept good production records without the aid of LP (such as before LP began); then I would still consider purchasing genetics from him / her. After all look at all the animal breeding accomplishments that took place throughout history before computers were working up algorithms.
In the case of wool traits, much of the "data" is ridding on the sheep's back just begging for some keen shepard to come along and make an industry out of it. Combine this with the fact that wool traits are so highly inheritable ... and bingo you have a focused, concentrated genetic effort that has yielded an extraordinary product that has been in the making for perhaps a thousand years or more - wool so fine & stylish that it now competes with cashmere which just a short time ago (relatively speaking) would have been unheard of. I am sure the power of the EBV tool sped up this development since coming on the scene but am also confident that many a savvy breeder over all those years had some pretty keen insights & intuition that led significant contributions to the effort.
Is this type of animal breeding an art or science or is it both and if so how much of each?
Unfortunate that other production traits are so hard to "see".
I don't follow the DNA research / developmants closely, but I wonder what the next major development in animal breeding will be? I have heard some on this forum talk about DNA to id lambs and that would be a huge improvement - the labor of eartags is huge - I hate the problem of eartag loss and the hassle of tattoos.
How slick if (perhaps some day) many production traits could be seen with DNA analysis, such as can now be done with wormstar for parasite resistance.
Again just rambling thoughts - forgive me for getting on my wool kick again - it seems like whenever I get talking sheep, I eventually end up talking about wool :oops:
Andy McMurry

Endeavoring to develop luxury wool producing dual purpose sheep suited to Midwest grazing based commercial production.

http://www.genopalette.com
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Re: EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby McMurry » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:54 am

Darroll wrote;
If there is not an economic incentive how would a seed stock breeder justify the added time and trouble?


My hesitance with the investment of getting all my sheep on LP; my personal history as a sheepman is that I make more money creating value in a product that there is a standing demand for rather than convincing others to buy something that is "new" and or "improved".
Hopefully, this is changing now ?
Andy McMurry

Endeavoring to develop luxury wool producing dual purpose sheep suited to Midwest grazing based commercial production.

http://www.genopalette.com
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Re: EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby jbates » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:40 pm

In New Zealand the Corriedale also have a policy of all studs need to be on SIL (New Zealand's Lambplan). Most breed groups also make it a requirement that EBV's have to be provided if you sell stud quality sires at any ram fair/sale. Corriedale also make it mandatory that to show sheep you have to provide EBV's. Most larger studs in New Zealand are on SIL but some still aren't. There is also some conflict between those that are figures based and those that rely more on structural soundness and pedigree and yet both are important to breed good quality stock. Also we do have some problems with the accuracy of some of the EBV's such as lamb survival, which relies on farmers supplying all dead lamb information and as they are charged for lamb's regardless of live or dead many don't many don't supply dead lamb information. The key to any genetic engine is that it needs to be driven by farmers and supported by geneticists not the other way round. This way farmers get a very practical tool that they can understand and use which tends to be the biggest weakness of theses programs
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Re: EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby lambchop » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:43 pm

For those of us that have been on LP for several years, there is value above and beyond selling sheep for a better price. In our case, we use the rams we raise on or own commercial flock, resulting in higher weaning weights and earlier sale of lambs to market, thus increasing profit. If a person is a "breeder" the tool allows one to improve genetics and measure progress. A true "breeder" is concerned with improving his flock from within, not buying rams that "look good" with no records and hope he works to accomplish ones objectives, if not, he goes and buys another ram. We have several rams we are using that would not be the top of the class at Sedalia, but I know they will improve our flock as to our objectives, which is not necessarily to place first in class, but to wean more pounds of lamb quicker with improved meat to bone ration and more value in the high priced cuts, i.e..loin, rib and leg. I do feel that with enough sheep and proper selection for EBV's and phenotype, a person can eventually top the class with outstanding numbers. I'll let you know if we ever get there.
Paul Lewis
White Dorpers with Lambplan EBV's
www.whitedorper.com
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Re: EBV's used in the make up of what breeds?

Postby dog » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:31 pm

Most breed groups also make it a requirement that EBV's have to be provided if you sell stud quality sires at any ram fair/sale. Corriedale also make it mandatory that to show sheep you have to provide EBV's.

I am not in favor of this - Lambplan is a commercial venture separate from the Stud societies also there are other Genetic evaluation systems available down here which are also commercial ventures. Breeders should have the choice where they spend their monies also breeders that do not wish to use lambplan should not be forced to incur the cost of recording LP data and recording for the genetic evaluation system they prefer to use.
Forcing people to use LP may lead to data that is not relevant or incorrect being entered into the database to the detriment of those that do wish to use LP. If the gene improvement systems work then they are tested at the sale yard by increased profit - if it is shown that there is an increased profit then breeders will start to use it. The problem with forcing every one to use a particular gene improvement system say such as LP may in time create the problem of a decreasing gene pool.
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